Category: Animal House
I recently decided to switch from the slip/choke collar to a prong/pinch collar for my dog. I have been researching how to use it properly, but I would like some reassurance. I will post what I learned here, and would like feedback on whether it is correct, and maybe some other tips on the use of this collar.
I decided to switch because it will do less damage to my dog's trachea in the long run, and might do a better job of correcting certain behaviors.
Here's the little bit I learned:
The best brand for this type of collar is Herm Sprenger because the prongs are rounded or flat. Sizing involves measuring the circumference of the dog's neck, and adding 2 inches. This collar is adjustable by removing or adding links. When using this collar, use it with another collar, or dominant collar, in the case that it comes loose. Corrections with this collar should only involve a light, quick snap and release.
A question I have is about what weight to get. I have a golden retriever, so I wonder if a medium weight collar is sufficient, or if I should buy a collar with a heavier weight.
I don't know much about them as I never used one. I know people who have done so successfully though. What does the school who trained your pup recommend? If it were me, that's probably where I'd start.
Good luck.
Does it really say it is better on their trachea in the long run? I worry about this. I don't have to do a lot of corrections but still. I don't like having to pull on her neck. I have her half check on her now instead of the slip collar and she seems to respond to it just as well.
I believe, and this is going on research done years ago so take it with a grain of salt, that the warnings against throat damage for dogs is in regards to smaller dogs. Larger dogs have the folds of skin at their throat which were designed to protect against the jaws of other dogs, but do just as well against the chain of a choke collar. Now, if you haul back on the choke collar and don't release, then it can make the throat collapse eventually, but if you do that you don't need a pinch collar, you need to lose your dog. Don't you all agree?
I would also call the school and ask them. I've learned that what trainers say is good for some dogs, is not always good for guide dogs for one reason or another. For example I read that sanding the pads of your dog's paws to get the calluses off was good for their paws. So, I did it, and my dog couldn't walk on pavement for a while.
Call the trainers at the school, they'll know.
I personally would never use a prong collar. Apart from the fact they are elegal in this country, I personally see no need for such a device. If your dog is trained to respond to both vocal and leash correction there should never be a need to use something more harsh on them. I've often felt that people who are directed or choose to do this are unable to control their dogs in a more effective way. This may not be the fault of the handler, but that of the way guide dogs are being trained, and/or bad instruction by the trainers.
i use a prong collar and have done so on various dogs for several years. it is like power steering on your dog. very slight corrections are needed. you will not need any snap at all, just a slight gentle tug or flick of the wrist. and, yes, it is way, way gentler on the neck. if you think that a large dog can not have a damaged throat from the harsh jerks of a slip collar then you are just kidding yourselves. i have seen guide dogs who have had such damage. the reason that i love these collars is that the public does not ever see you correcting your dog because of the small gestures needed. and, for my 75 pound dog, i use a large collar. they have small medium, large and extra large. i do not use a specific brand just what i have found online. the measuring is not so critical as you can just take out links. if you have any doubts here is a test you can do at a store. first put a slip collar on your arm and give yourself a nice hard leash correction. now, try the same with the prong collar. come back and let us know which one hurts worse and which one releases faster.
I would never use one on my dog...
here is a great website with some great information.
http://seattletimes.com/html/tailsofseattle/2016407514_veterinary_qa_prong_collars_are_safe_--_fact_or_fiction.html
Argh. No, no, no no no no no.
The problem with collars, period, is that they direct the dog solely around the neck. That's not where the dog's center of balance or attention is.
You either want a full head-harness, or preferably a chest-harness. No matter the size of the dog, the point is that when surrounded by a harness, if they try to pull you off course, they knock themselves off balance because the resistance goes against their chest and forelegs. They can't slip out of it, and it gives you a lot more control over steering them.
Skip the collar altogether and buy your dog a harness.
But M, its a guide dog, its already wearing a harness, and if its trying to pull her in a given direction, its probably because she needs to go in that direction, so it being off balance would probably not be a good consequence. The collar isn't for directing the dog, its for correcting the dog.
I didn't see where she said it was a guide dog, so I was going on the pet principle.
However, if the dog is pulling so much, this may be the time to contact the guide dog school for a refresher. That's unacceptable behavior.
She didn't but she has recently gotten a golden guide dog from guiding Eyes. She has spoken about it in other post but it was an easy thing to get confused.
Hi guys, I just want to update you on the prong collar.
I got one almost two weeks ago, and I am very pleased with it. I'll admit it looks like a collar for rescue dogs with no or little training, or for dogs who are aggressive or extremely excitable. But I like it. I appreciate that it does not and cannot choke my dog, and there's no more chain getting caught in my dog's fur.
I find that he is more responsive to this collar. The main behaviors I wanted it for were sniffing people as we passed them, and for his dog distraction. He doesn't sniff many people as we pass, but I guess if he smells another dog on some people, it excites him. I just feel better using this kind of collar for corrections altogether.
I will not consult the school about his dog distraction unless I find that it gets so bad that I cannot work him properly. Puppy-raisers are not allowed to use correction collars, and the school did not manage to iron out this behavior, so it is ultimately up to me to employ methods and tools that work for our team. I decided that the prong collar is a good tool.
I saw a list of characteristics schools look for in a guide dog; I think it was on GEB's website. Anyhow. one of the characteristics was not having a strong dog distraction. Maybe they classify his as moderate or something, but my dog most definitely doesn't have that characteristic. While I'm a bit upset that they gave me a dog that has such a distraction, I do feel he is my soul mate and am pleased with his behavior otherwise. I guess I would take this over a dog that scavenges, is a complete nut case out of harness, or a labrador.
Hey now Raven. We are so near to becoming enimies. LOL!
My dog is a lab and does get very excited out of harness and her scavenging is now down to a sniff maybe if she dares.
Ok but siriously.
I just got her prong collar in today and I also got a prong collar cover from
cozycritters.com
I think the prong is hugemungously large and chuncky. I was kind of shocked to see it. I put the collar cover on it and it fits perfectly. I was kind of worried that since I ordered the cover before I got the collar I would have made a mistake and get the wrong size. It fits fine. I took out my dog for a short walk out side healing her and she was extra well behaved. I even slide my arm in to the collar and pulled it to see how it would feel for her while whereing it. It isn't too bad.
If it was freezing and windy outside I might have gone out for a walk to try it out. I might do it any way.
Well I will post an up date in a couple of weeks to see how she does with it.
But I wanted to say. I got the prong collar for both her egurness to socialize and some of her determenation to go her own trips to place we aren't going to and for how it is less harmful for her trakia.
I've seen those collars. I can't say I'm a particular fan of them but I'd much sooner use them than a shock collar, not that there should be any need for anything like that on a guide dog.
To PorkInCider, I don't know what country you are in, or what their diffinition of a prong collar is, but I am guessing the UK and that they mean the spike collars and that this is because of dog fighting concerns. If so, remember that your country also engages in BSL, which is complete and utter bull shit. BSL or breed specific legislation if crap of the highest order. I know many wonderful dobermins, german shepherds, pit bulls and ratwilers who are service dogs. Next, a prong collar if properly used is an excellent tool, but it is not neccessary for most dogs, and not advisable in the hands of an inexperienced handler. Just because a prong collar is needed does not mean that the dog, the training or the handler is substandard. Some dogs with extremely thick fluffy coats need a prong collar to truly feel a correction, and a chain collar pulls out their fur and leaves them bald around the neck and it hurts them a lot. Some people who have service dogs who have very limited upper body strength use prong collars because it gets through to the dog with very little pressure and allows them to communicate with the dog without utalizing a chain collar that they couldn't correct with properly and or that if utalized with too minimal force would let the dog know the handler can't correct them well, leading to obediants problems. Also, if you are in the UK, the dogs trained by the UK guide dog school are very soft compared with American trained dogs. American schools do put out many soft dogs for whom prong collars would be unsuitable, but they also put out some moderate and hard dogs too. A hard dog is a more brilliant worker generally than a soft dog, but needs stronger correctioons and more vigilance. Which type of dog is indicated will depend on the environment to be worked in, the handler's personality and handling experience and the needs of the individual team. Many schools will have a prong collar for a particular dog and will very very carefully instruct their student on how to use it safely and properly. Now to the origional poster. I would not recommend switching collars just because you are worried about tracia problems. On large breed dogs that is of mild concern only. Also, unless you've had guide dogs for many many years, more than one, and have considerable dog training experience beyond this I would not recommend making such a change without the assistance of and at the suggestion of your guide dog school. If your dog is having behavioral problems, a trainer may have alternative solutions. If they just aren't responding as well to corrections, then perhaps a slightly smaller or larger chain collar is needed, a different style of leash correction, a high collar correction if your school teaches that, or some other stratagy. While prong collars are absolutely safe and benificial training tools for some dogs in some situations, I do not recommend them lightly.
To Miss M. Hello? I believe we are talking about guide dogs, and a chest harness on a guide dog will not work at all. You don't steer them, and they are supposed to pull you off course, it's calld obsticle clearance. For pet dogs I do sometimes recommend chest harnesses, but usually for well trained dogs and ordinary owners a simple martingale collar is sufficent, not even a chain collar or prong collar. Head collars are one of those things that depends. If your guide tollerates 1 well it can be a good option, but for some it distroys their sense of being in the lead and then they won't guide safely. It's best to talk to your school and if possible the trainer of your specific dog to know how they will do with a head collar. I think it is the hallmark of ignorance when someone who claims to be experienced with dogs insists that 1 or 2 specific types of collars are the best for all dogs. Martingale, head, prong, chain, half check, and buckle collars and various types of harnesses are all good choices for different situations. I can think of lidgitimate need for each 1 of those options in real life situations with real working service dogs and actual pet dogs I've worked, or worked with or helped train or witnessed, so please try to stay open minded until which time you genuinely become a dog expert or at least very dog experienced.
To Miss M. Hello? I believe we are talking about guide dogs, and a chest harness on a guide dog will not work at all. You don't steer them, and they are supposed to pull you off course, it's calld obsticle clearance. For pet dogs I do sometimes recommend chest harnesses, but usually for well trained dogs and ordinary owners a simple martingale collar is sufficent, not even a chain collar or prong collar. Head collars are one of those things that depends. If your guide tollerates 1 well it can be a good option, but for some it distroys their sense of being in the lead and then they won't guide safely. It's best to talk to your school and if possible the trainer of your specific dog to know how they will do with a head collar. I think it is the hallmark of ignorance when someone who claims to be experienced with dogs insists that 1 or 2 specific types of collars are the best for all dogs. Martingale, head, prong, chain, half check, and buckle collars and various types of harnesses are all good choices for different situations. I can think of lidgitimate need for each 1 of those options in real life situations with real working service dogs and actual pet dogs I've worked, or worked with or helped train or witnessed, so please try to stay open minded until which time you genuinely become a dog expert or at least very dog experienced.
I used 2 guides, I don't have one now, but loved the experience.
I honestly had an issue even with the choke collar, and had to be coached to use it. Even a snap of my wrist is kind of hard and I can snatch even a big dog off its feet like that, so it was touch on me.
I just think my voice and a gentle no on a well trained dog was good enough.
I love the suggestions here to use it on your arm to see what its like. That pleased me.
I love people who presume to know everything. I know exactly what a prong collar is, and it's ellegal in the UK. also a chain collar if fitted the right way never gets tangled in fur or pulls it out. the problem is most people fit them the wrong way around so they never actually run freely so act as a choke and not a check which is what they truly should be called and used for. I've had different breeds of guide dog and seen many difering types, I in fact have a difficult dog but still don't need more than what we call a half check to control that willfullness. a half check is part nylon, with a small loop of chain so that for the most part it is only the nylon which contacts the dogs neck anyway.
I think what some of you are just not getting is that for some dogs, just your voice isn't enough. Harder dogs, can make some of the best guide dogs, and they honestly do require correction, physical correction. I think the idea that if a dog is well enough trained it won't need a prong collar, chain collar, insert name of training tool, is really indicative of a lack of understanding of dog training in general and guide dog training specifically. If guide dog schools only ever put out the soft type of dogs who can be controled with nothing but one's voice and a gentle tug on a cloth martingale collar, then we would have a lot of dangerous working teams out there and a lot of people who just couldn't have dogs, because their situation demands a harder dog. Other working dogs such as sled dogs and police dogs almost always require prong or chain collars, because they don't respond to verbal only corrections or gentle physical corrections. It has to do with the dog's physical threshhold for discomfort, note I don't say pain, because those are different things, their degree of drive for their work, and their responsiveness to the handler. For example, once a hunting dog has a scent, or once a police dog has been sent to catch and hold a fleeing criminal, once a sled dog has begun to run, or once a guide dog, who is very driven has picked up on the desired route to take, or spotted their destination, their focus becomes the job, not the handler. This is neither good nor bad, it just is what it is, and it can't be changed without ruening the dog's work drive and therefore the dog. In laman's terms, it takes a hell of a lot of balls to go and take down a running human being who weighs 2 to 4 times your weight and could seriously hurt you. It takes serious dedication and love of the work to avidly seek out stairs, downcurbs, alternative ways around obsticles, ignore distractions and focus on the destination. It takes serious heart and drive to run miles at top speeds in freezing weather. And when you are running on that drive, that iniciative, that passion, it means that you, the dog, also have one hell of a personality, a little or a lot of attitude and some major feelings about what the priorities are. If the criteria were used of "If the dog can't be controled with voice alone all of the time then it's not well trained." then we never would have had guide dogs at all. What do you think Buddy the first Seeing Eye dog was like? She pretty much ate nails for breakfast and pissed vinegar. Guides back then were all hard dogs. Now, they issue a pretty good mix of hard, soft and moderate dogs to meet the different types of working situations and the needs of a varied population from teen agers to senior citizens, from those whose only disability is blindness, to those with balance issues, hearing loss, and even physical mobility challenges, those working in big cities, to suburbs to farms, those who walk miles a day and those who walk miles a week, those who work in highly sensative populations like with infants and children, the elderly, in hospitals and so on, and those who work in very tough situations, loud factories, in the prison system, traveling through unsavory parts of the city, caotic highschools and so on. If this criteria were applied to other working dogs, we wouldn't have police dogs at all, most sled dogs wouldn't exist and hunting dogs would be out as well. I've encountered this annoyance where guide dog handlers presume to be experts on guide dogs just because they have 1, and to be dog experts in general, just because they have a working relationship with a dog themself. Most car owners know how to perform basic preventative maintainance and that's it. It doesn't make them bad people, or dumb, they just know what is neccessary to operate their particular car and that is it. That doesn't make them qualified to speak to how other cars work, or to speak to how trucks, trains, buses or airplanes work, just because they have a car. Guide dog schools teach us a lot more than the average pet owner knows, but this does not make us experts of any kind. Now someone who has either had a lot of guide dogs and a lot of experience, and or who is active in many aspects of the dog training field, may have that wisdom, but the average guide dog user doesn't know crap about police dogs, hearding dogs, hunting dogs, therapy dogs, etc, let alone other types of service dogs. As to fur not getting caught. That is not true. Especially the fine fluffy fur of coated shepherds and golden retrievers can be shredded and even pulled out by chain collars, even if properly fitted. The fur saver collars can help, but they don't offer as effective corrections as the links doen't move as easily. I know many service dog handlers with all sorts of service dogs, police officers with K9 partners, and those who work and show dogs in all sorts of professions and events, and many excellent dogs require a chain collar or a prong collar, so don't emply that they aren't well trained. You realize many of the rescue dogs that they sent in after nine eleven wore prong collars? You realize that many of the dogs who do drug or bomb sniffing wear prong collars and the rest almost exclusively wear chain collars? So, if you want to argue with the police, professional rescue dog trainers and handlers, hundreds of service dog training programs, and countless other trainers and handlers, go ahead, have a blast, they aren't going to give you the time of day. Last thing, I don't really consider the UK's position on anything dog related to be of much informative rellivance as they engage as I mentioned before in BSL which is ignorant and detremental.
I do not own a guide dog, so I'm just going off of common knowledge about dogs. Dogs are related to wolves, and as you probably know wolves hunt and travel in packs. Dogs are similar in this way. The previous poster mentioned sled dogs, and these dogs work in teams that have a lead dog, or pack leader. This leader has to be strong and keep the dogs focused, while interracting with the person who is operating the sled. However, this does not apply to only sled dogs, or even dogs that work in groups. It comes down to the owner, and how disciplined the owner is abel to keep the dog. It doesn't matter what sort of collar they use, and it does not matter what part of the world you live in. It all comes down to that simple philosophy. If the dog does something wrong, you correct it by saying no and redirect it.
I have a hard dog, and though he is a wonderful worker, I had to switch to a prong collar. Since I am by know means an expert on guide dogs, since evry dog is different, I had my trainer come out to help me with some issues. It was determined, that a prong collar would help to get us on track, as the chain collar wasn't getting through to him. When we put it on him, there was an instant change. I later found out, that CCI where he was donated from, trains their dogs with prong collars. After using it on him off and on with the chain collar, I've seen him improve greatly. My trainer very firmly told me when and how I should correct. It's been a few weeks since I acquired the prong collar, and in the last week I've barely had to use it. My dog seems much happier, I think because he know's for sure what I expect of him now. If he's acting up for some reason, and the chain collar doesn't do the trick, I just switch collars. As many posters have said, you should never invest in a different type of collar until you've done your research, or in my case your guide dog trainer suggested making the switch. I would of never thought of using one.